Why? ISBN13: 9780310533719 Release Date: June 1993 Publisher: Zondervan Length: 240 Pages Weight: 0.40 lbs. If people doubted my testimony about being assaulted by a guy who publicly harassed women that nobody could stand, then certainly they wont believe their favored celebrity can do things like that. For many years, they were THE place when on job hunt. The Body does not put its faith in humans, even celebrity ones. And sadly most victims spend YEARS time trying to answer the question why they were targeted. Wow!!! One does not mess with God and get away with it. Nothing substitutes for diligent study and wide reading. Hooray for David. Her pastor said that her body belonged to her husband and he could do whatever he wanted to do. We still do not know what that really means. Blank stares all around. When youre the victim of something creepy, such as abuse, suggestive sexual behavior or private narcissistic rage or whatever ugly thing from a pastor who holds himself up as a paragon of virtue, people often feel embarrassed at having been involved in it, even if they had nothing to do with the wrongful actions. Where I work we are required to use the company secure email system if sending high or moderate risk information (e.g., social security numbers, credit card numbers, student records, health information). At times I have even wondered if it is not even being used to distract from addressing the root of the problem. Who would believe any of it if it were not for the Ortbergs? Hybels is spending his time complaining and murmuring against his accusers, rather than taking their contentions to heart, examining himself, repenting and coming clean. I double dog dare every Creeker to demand to see a detailed budget. Jesus was a grand act to follow, and the disciples did it right. To TWW regulars: I am becoming concerned that there will be a full court press by some people. truthseeker wrote: Buy my books, listen to my sermons, attend my conferences! Sounds more like damage control. Yeah, right. 1 in particular always made flirtatious comments. if one has enough of those there seems to be a scale to weigh behaviors against. Nancy, like Vonda, believed her experience with Bill was an isolated incident. * It is about power and control and until people in churches get this, they will be waaaaay behind the culture. "The question of how to pay for reforms long-term became an issue this week after the SBCs Executive Committee announced it had lost $6 million over the past fiscal year, mainly due to the cost of responding to the sex abuse crisis. There are no winners here. I know. I will keep the website updated. Very true, and far too common: Jerry Sandusky, Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Dr. Larry Nassar, Bill Hybels. etc. Lynne Hybels is the wife of Bill Hybels-renowned founder and senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois. @ dee: Dee, Second guessing somebodys way of dealing with their own spouse is usually really wrong. When will people get it that the church is not the same thing as the body of Christ. when Bill Hybels prayed for/about something no matter what it was, that according to Hybels God always answered him immediately or within days, Indeed, the Lords hand is not too short to save, and His ear is not too deaf to hear. I dont want to think poorly of John Ortberg too. Thats how they get by with it. Because it was not entirely clear what happened. Its evidence. Ive experienced it alsomultiple times. I too believed that what I experienced was an aberration and couldnt be attributed to a person of such spiritual stature. There will be a full court press to save Hybels legacy. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+5&version=NIV, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. All it would take, with most women is a subtle suggestion that You did come to my hotel room voluntarily or I didnt force you to stay and have a glass of wine to manipulate her into blaming herself for any inappropriate activity and keep her mouth shut. You are right, the whole situation smells of cover-up. And And then maybe they see it happening, confront the guy, he says understood and suddenly you and your husband are out of a job. Anti-semitic ? And Long Prayers will be said for justification. Rats gnawing cables in two; How to build a corporation in 5 easy steps. The church and association are no longer paying Hybels a salary or other payments, according to the report, but a binding retirement agreement is still in place until 2020. Is Bill Hybels still married? Amnon: I WANNA TAMAR! Posted travelpro skywalk vs maxlite. The only thing you can blame other people for is making his deception known. I wonder if her crisis of faith was after finding out about something shady Bill was doing? Unless, of course, its useful as an excuse Is that honest? Sometimes theyre letting you know who theyve really been followingand who they havent been. In hindsight, it is exactly as others have stated predatory, calculated and manipulative all with a facade of kindness and mentoring. I dont see this issue is white or black hats. None of the first seven ecumenical councils dealt with this topic, which pretty much means that the line of heresy was never defined. @ dee: @ April Kasper: This is VERY common. And people are actually saying Hybels being a champion of women was under false pretenses, for Sex? You get a time out. You watch a kid in a souped up car on the highway darting in and out at excessive speeds and say I hope he gets picked up.. some Rabbi from Nazareth. So many perps being exposed it looks like the Lord is behind the exposure. Medical records are handled in this fashion. We could apply those words to the most recent statement by Mr Hybels. That seems inappropriate. I think I hugged my coworker of ten years when he retired, Paul actually recommends we greet one another with a holy kiss.. But I dont think the view of hell is really the issue for the church leaders highlighted here. I know this because I have experienced it myself. All we can do is obey the Lord, do whatever it is were told by Him to do. Hybels, the influential founder and pastor Willow Creek, resigned in April 2018 after 42 years leading the church. Love That Lasts book. In the 1980s, she was the executive assistant to Bill Hybels, the senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Not one. People are saved to church. Updated | Rev. tax. Sovereign Grace Ministries I dont know about anybody else, but when I see something bonkers like that I tend to leave it alone, @ Forrest: Hybels, the influential founder and pastor willow creek, resigned in april 2018 after 42 years leading the church. Im probably sensitive about this because Ive seen the this is what you get for being an egalitarian on social media and it drives me nuts. Lynne Hybels was born on 21st November 1951. Should Christians be carrying around tally sheets-How many did I lead to Christ this week? How hard is it for men to keep their hands off women in the work environment? So, does that mean the alleged improprieties, at least for them, are not #Metoo worthy offenses? I want to make sure I understand you. Much Prayer as God makes all things clear. The sheer resources at these (mostly) mens disposal. I think you have to either ask, as okrapod mentioned, or kind of read the room. Ive experienced it alsomultiple times. Its not a numbers game, its not like worldly sales with rainmakers and marketing and big hits. Or, they quickly retract. If you arent getting that from family, church and friends might conceivably help meet that need. And his comment is A church? No one walks away unascathed. A dishonest person disposes everything in the hope that nothing will ever be retrieved that reveals his guilt. I dont think that you can judge how repentant and how contrite Bill has been, based on the words that he said when he announced his retirement. I hope you are right about this. Hee hee. To choose to continue to take a medication in spite of those side effects, when there are so many other sleep aids available, makes no sense. Standing Ovations: Whats the Difference Between Highpoint Church and Willow Creek Community Church, Some Thoughts on Supposedly Feminist Men Who Reportedly Abuse/Harass Women | futuristguy, http://www.divorceminister.com/nancy-ortberg-shares-her-side-rebill-hybels-allegations/, https://vondadyer.weebly.com/blog/vonda-dyers-statement-re-chicago-tribune-and-bill-hybels, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa0EtdtPi8w, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv72Q23lIp0, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bKkOke2noyc, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FLT3Cb96-Mk, https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=28151%5D, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seed. Posting from East China where these kind of things often, ahem, usually get brushed under the carpet. This morning, Nancy Ortberg posted Flawed Process, Wounded Women on her website. You will eventually find like minded people. I dont know if that all makes sense. Publishers are pulling back for a reason. The retiring pastor calls it all collusion and lies. Dont know, but I wonder. But long ago, I realized that these situations are not made up of clear white/black hats. May God raise up more people like Josiah who tore down the high places and every high thing that exalted itself against the knowledge of God until Jesus becomes the only thing worshipped in the church. I get it bothers you. memory loss, mental/mood/behavior changes (such as new or worsening depression, abnormal thoughts, thoughts of suicide, hallucinations, confusion, agitation, aggressive behavior, or anxiety).. It goes with safe spaces at college. Its up to friends what they do. No one I know here has a problem with redemption. Still he says, Willow Creek should be able to survive, even if the allegations against Bill Hybels are true. Stop blaming women for getting assaulted. My point is not so much whether this is right or wrong, but at the way this thing was done, yet is inaccurately perceived as a random event. As a victim-advocate and blogger, I feel isolated because of my time zone. In some jurisdictions and situations, it may lead to criminal charges for spoliation of evidence or perhaps even tampering of evidence. And whistleblowers are rarely the pristine good guys with no baggage. My bad for not being back in touch with you. @ jackie: Later I did not know how or who to talk to and began to second-guess and doubt myself as to its significance; that is, until years later when I began to hear stories of other similar encounters. Last Son Standing? This has not only damaged women but also affected men, like my husband, who looked up to Bill Hybels as a positive role model. No one. Still not handled. I guess you are not aware of the president for whom Hybels was a spiritual advisor. And, yes, some people dont come forward with their experiences for dozens of years. Whats being destroyed is the idol worship of Bill Hybels. He describes how skilled offenders select, set up, groom, offend against, re-groom and then re-offend against the woman/women they target. Its safer. Those of us in the pews and on staff are at fault. Your comments prove your ignorance and arrogance. Parallel universe I suppose; different set of rules most likely. It doesnt matter what they were wearing, what they were drinking, etc. We were in both places for years and said little or nothing. There are evil people who look like good people. As it says in the bible, Who are we to judge? This is part of the problem that the #metoo movement does not address. 20 years later Ive served in ministry as well as a school administrator for small and very large public high schools. HE GOT AWAY WITH IT, SO CAN I! You see pastor do something and you know its off, but you rationalize it away I mustve misunderstood what was going on. Down the road, you something else, maybe far worse comes up, you think Oh, pastor, hes a little quirky, but he means well. You then experience something genuinely alarming, you think Well, hes an imperfect man, but God uses us all, no ones perfect.. Fine, however, increased accountability comes with this. The mistake people make is thinking everything can go back to normal. No one. Wondering if the old frog in the pot was happening at the church, including John Ortberg. Open Discussion Page. I would have probably rolled my eyes at Vonda on stage in 2003 because I despised the commercial entertainment mega world by then. Please understand that this is exactly the way it usually happens. And us adults have to learn not to be so easily snookered by evil experts masquerading as wonderful people and pass red flags along to children. Publishers are pulling back for a reason. You are so right. This is VERY common. Might I suggest this might more accurately say that sexual predation is not always based on wanting to have sex? WTF? The entire Gospel is predicated on the fact that we are sinners and that we are going to be sinners until we go home. Is that structure really the best way to know Christ? It is the Spirits job to convict and change.. I pity you if thats the case. It was alleged in an article of 'Chicago Tribune.' Further, the Chicago Tribune and Christianity Today too reported allegations about his misconduct. Statement removes all doubt, in my opinion, regarding serious sexual sin and leadership issues at Willow Creek Community Church as it comes to Bill Hybels. Was Hybels intimating that The Ambien made me do it? Read this account posted by Vonda Dyer. Whether anyone associated with any of his accusers is a jerk or not, I fail to see the pointunless, of course, the point is to smear whoever accuses him so that people will think twice before bringing forth any more stories. This is largely Christianese. As we passed through the line I asked him if he would like a hug and he said he would. Hybels retired early from Willow Creek in 2018 after he was accused by several women, who worked for or attended the church, of sexual misconduct stretching back more than 20 years. Publishing is a major part of a celebritys platform. My NPD/Sociopath brother once set up a long con against our stepmother, grooming ally after ally FOR SEVERAL YEARS in his TRVTH! The solution? I suspect (although I dont know for sure) that a hug creates a higher dose of oxytocin. . Because his REAL Personal LORD and Savior (PASTOR Hybels) is getting Blasphemed. Often, it is only after literally hundreds of these red flags have piled up and someone else mentions that they have this problem with something pastor said or did, that we finally go, What have I done? That isnt what I was talking about and I should have clarified. His third publisher, Zondervan, has not yet responded to inquiries. Fools a lot of people and so utterly against anything Christ said. It is clear to me that God did not want this hidden any longer.. Dee, is Julie a new commenter here? Dee, my Sister Nancy Beach sent me this today. This caliber of leaders dont just stay quiet. So what does that say about what he thinks of me that he thinks he can help himself to my woman? Brad, given my age, their is a high probability that I was taking college bible class before you were born. And I go back to one of my earlier assertions about celebrity. We have a problem with people who now want to pile on the growing number of women who are coming forward with similar stories. Of course, you have move people beyond that into a mature relationship with the Lord and some megas neglect this. Then I started questioning that after quite a few! And could it easily be construed as creating complicity by whoever carried out that demand? And why on earth is this even a discussion? You and who else; or is it just you princess? Is this a ruse to further that idea? You are now in permanent moderation. Adults need to Stop being snookered by totalitarian niceness. Peter Led about 3000 to Christ on the day of Pentacost. In 2018, sexual misconduct allegations had been alleged against Bill Hybels. That is where I had to start over. Instead of turning the other cheek or choosing kindness in the midst of your disappointment, I see anger and a willingness to hurt other people. By the time you get there, youve probably already been compromised yourself, youve supported a lot of evil things, youve shouted down others who were only trying to get at the truth (as I once did, alassorry, Adam, you were right and I was wrong, pastor really was up to no good), and its not easy to extricate yourself or your family. Some will walk away all together from their faith journey. @ Davis and Natasha: psychology today says that When we hug or kiss a loved one, oxytocin levels increase; hence, oxytocin is often called the love hormone.. I cannot imagine the pain, the hurt. They are pits of mass deception and subterfuge. She also questioned her own judgment in whether he was actually being inappropriate. I dont fault them for that, but its what happens. It just did not need to be a science or a manufactured event. . By your own philosophy of hugging then i would assume that the women who are complaining about Hybels hugging behavior also know the difference and therefore they are utterly correct in their objections to his behavior. And conveniently you are dismissing the affair. Ok, So Nancy Ortberg was fondled, hugged, touched. To me its a faux and phony culture that cant get over itself. And what is important here is that authoritarian control, often gained through emotional, spiritual and or sexual abuse is frequently used to establish control and enable institutions to achieve whatever it is their true agendas are. In lego marvel rescue minifigure No, the flesh made them do it! By the time you get there, youve probably already been compromised yourself, youve supported a lot of evil things, youve shouted down others who were only trying to get at the truth (as I once did, alassorry, Adam, you were right and I was wrong, pastor really was up to no good), and its not easy to extricate yourself or your family. Theres much interesting reading on the Donald MacLeod thread, including this 1988 quote posted Thursday by Malcolm, from Mr James Fraser: his response failed to allay my fears that there was some truth in the allegations. My problem with all of this is that I am no fan of or apologist for mega churches or mega stars of any stripe. Jodi may get extra points for a time for her clever rant but if this thing goes south she will be the first to go. Because I handled it in the moment (As she did with her push away response to Hybels) And it worked. Ive been thinking along similar lines for a few days, and its relevance to the question, How could this happen in whats been consider a pioneering egalitarian church?. These people are the living proof. That attitude was a LOT more prevalent than people think. And a pedestal they can fall from and did. Kudos to these two publishers. I see this is a crucial issue, and I appreciate that Dee has put it forward for consideration in abuse survivor communities. Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage. I looked it up and way down on the list it says rarely it might cause some to do things they dont remember. The Eurythmics. The next morning, Bill and I were the first ones at breakfast in the hotel. Harvey was condemned by Hollywood while Bill received the proverbial Standing O, I had to read this twice. I dont have any memory of doing and saying those things to her that night!. Just a followup to my above comment. Its uncomfortable but is it anything really? They are rarely anything alike. We saw the dirty laundry, the rebellious child, etc. Its the evil person who masquerades as a good person. I agree!! Not a word. The comments we disallow often have to do with abuse of victims along with some other things. And people are actually saying Hybels being a champion of women was under false pretenses, for Sex? Time for some more sacred cows to get smashed. You did nothing to invite such horrors of sexual abuse. Sounds like at least some of the accusers would like to see justice for sure, but also redemption for even Hybels. I do not know the answer to this question but red flags are waving up, down and all around this situation. Prayer Requests We can all learn from this and make sure to teach your kids. @ okrapod: over my many years associated with fundamenatlist through to mainline protestant groups I have experienced things situations, or told things that seemed just downright wrong. Driscoll will do quite well in charismatic ranks. Never being offended. Im not saying any of that is right. publishers suspend publication of books by megachurch pastor Hybels. Jesus wins. Weve seen all kinds of abuses from ministry leaders and time always reveals the truth. Just wonderin, Similarities The church is doing fine. Pulling the of the devil card is vintage playbook. Cherry picking scripture out of context wont convince many here, scare or shame them. At CertainPublicSchool kids have been caught in the rest room actually having sex as well as dosing on drugs. Because you put so much trust and admire a leader like Hybels, your first instinct is to dismiss anything off about them. I know of one drawing up plans for an old fashioned Chapel complete with a steeple to put on their campus for those who prefer smaller churches. From the website, its all sunshine and lollipops but the mask is really starting to slip. . The information given was half-truths and from the very first email sent out from the elderslacking wisdom and discernment. Such a horror of more revictimization. No wonder you have no qualms about slamming the Church, the bride of Christ. See, here is the problem . Thats why its not overblown to discuss patterns of behavior over a 40 year period from different sources about a pastor who spent his career begging us all to look at me! Her courage will be an inspiration many others. I pray every day for you-know-who to be able to find a way out of teaching which did not result in poverty. I think Hybels and Billy Graham lost their beliefs somewhere along the way. The inner motivations and thoughts of an individual. I fund it demeaning to victims and I dont do demeaning here. Abuse works on the good-hearted the ones who are trying to give others the benefit of the doubt, questioning their own discernment, seeking to extend charity. Our job is to sow seeds. Ok. The pastor didnt understand that this was not about sex but about control and power. She bears serious emotional scars to this day, several decades later. Shame on all who participated in this. There is a reason that big names get away with so much. During that meeting, an Elder told a WCA Board member that Willow Creek had no document retention policy. This was the first time either Board had heard about this arrangement, but both of these women told us separately that Bill had told them about this special arrangement years prior. 3 comments are deleted. Ruth Haley Barton, formerly of Willow Creek and trained at the very contemplative Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington D.C., wrote Invitation to Solitude and Silence, and teaches contemplative prayer through her Transforming Center. Note: Nancy Ortberg served as a teaching pastor for eight years at Willow Creek Community Church. He sees things.. I wonder if her crisis of faith was after finding out about something shady Bill was doing? Make it easy for women (or their husbands, boyfriends) to provide information. Recently posted by the Chicago Tribune, which has tracked this story since breaking it in March: Two publishers suspend publication of books by megachurch pastor Hybels in wake of misconduct allegations.. The invitation to the first Family Meeting stated in the first paragraph that this group wanted to damage the church and the senior pastor! (ed deleted link). These things were the normal and the personal assistants was more than happy to go along. Your experience fits my own. So thats why I was interested in this concept. Oh yeah. Read reviews from world's largest community for readers. This caliber of leaders dont just stay quiet. The whole church is in our thoughts and prayers. I have heard sermons on the side hug. Followed by the disciples, who never promoted themselves, built buildings, staged shows, had followers, had a staff. Most of these people have no clue they are in a thought reform situation until they get very far away from it. I teach fraud for a living, you see, developed my universitys curriculum on it and am at this very moment in negotiation with a publisher to develop a textbook on it. Below, what to know about the Bill Hybels scandal. He is the founder and CEO of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), one of the most powerful and influential organizations globally. And us adults have to learn not to be so easily snookered by evil experts masquerading as wonderful people and pass red flags along to children. Time will tell whether WC was following Christ or Hybels. Now, if we mean that believers at Willow Creek (or outside of it) will grapple with Mr Hybels and the Elders sins in these matters as they themselves become more sanctified, I can see that perspective. It never appeared that they were the type of people that would not speak up. For example, I have no problem with a man eating dinner in a public restaurant with a woman who is not his wife . Max, darn! Just listening to Hybels extol the leadership virtues of Heather Lawson (another blonde) was enough to make me wonder, Is anyone else hearing and seeing this? His own wife (Lynne) is very different from the women Hybels mentored. And I never understood why Hybels did not step down when his wife (Lynne) had a HUGE crisis of faith. So sad. Why would we expect a follower of Hybels to be different from Hybels? Ever thought of switching to WordPress? @ Davis and Natasha: The church isnt being destroyed. Read Acts 4 and 5. Wow!!! And influence a few. All the retreats, big brother making sure you attend mid week activities (I know of some megas that were playing around with a card swipe for staff to make sure they were attending services and staying), the need to be cool, your personal assistants doing your clothes shopping, etc, etc. This includes a majority Christian circle. At this same meeting, Bill was asked about his special arrangement with I.T., where his emails are permanently deleted on a frequent and regular basis. He has two children with his wife, Lynn whom he married in 1974. Its harder to sweep things under the rug when internet on-lookers are looking under rugs 24-7. kwim, dees? @ Davis and Natasha: Throughout this scorching page-turner, Roy is charming and has a Strange things are happening on Twitter on this case. I dont want to think poorly of John Ortberg too. Unfortunately, this particular scandal not only impacts specific Willow Creek pastors or employees it impacts the body of Christ and the thousands of people seeking to know Jesus. Its YOUR money they use. The FAQ document she links, however, entitled Willow Creek Response to Local Media, has mysteriously transformed itself into a 404 NOT FOUND message.